BEFORE THE STATE OF WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL AND HEALTH SERVICES DIVISION OF CHILD SUPPORT (DCS) KENNEWICK PUBLIC FORUM CHILD SUPPORT SCHEDULE WORKGROUP REPORT OF RECORDED PROCEEDINGS September 26, 2005 Transcribed by: Cindy L. Carmichael, CCR 2016 Registered Professional Reporter of CAPITOL PACIFIC REPORTING, INC. 901 South I Street, Suite 201, Tacoma, WA 98405 Tel (253) 564-8494 Fax (253) 564-8486 Toll Free (800) 407-0148 Olympia, WA Seattle, WA Aberdeen, WA (360) 352-2054 (206) 622-9919 (360) 532-7445 Chehalis, WA Bremerton, WA (360) 330-0262 (360) 373-9032 www.capitolpacificreporter.com courtreporters@callatg.com 1 APPEARANCES 2 WORKGROUP PANEL MEMBERS 3 Moderator - David Stillman 4 Linda Langston Marvin Charles 5 Angela Quavis Walt Balter 6 Michelle Maddox Mary Goff 7 Kathleen Schmidt Kimber Martin 8 Judge Chris Wickham George Smiley 9 Ellen Nolan 10 PUBLIC SPEAKERS 11 PAGE 12 Mr. Mark Mahnkey 16 13 Mr. Jerry Lee 23 14 Ms. Zelma Jackson 25 15 Mr. Greg M. Howe 28 16 Ms. Jennifer Hanratty 41 17 Ms. Jennie Bristol 43 18 Ms. Shiela Reed 45 19 - - - 20 GLOSSARY OF PARENTHETICALS 21 (Indiscernible): Words were heard, but not understood. 22 (Inaudible): Sounds were heard, which 23 was an apparent response, but could not be 24 understood. 25 (No audible response): No sounds were heard. 2 1 KENNEWICK PUBLIC FORUM 2 September 26, 2005 3 - - - 4 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you very much 5 for those of you who have come from far and wide. I 6 want to extend a welcome to you and thank you for your 7 attendance here tonight. Before we begin, I do have 8 some housekeeping things that I would like to cover. 9 Please let me encourage you to sign in to speak. I do 10 have the first sign-up sheet, and so far we've got four 11 folks who have indicated an interest in speaking 12 tonight, but I want to encourage anyone and everyone 13 who might at all be interested in making comments and 14 offering suggestions or solutions to problems that they 15 perceive to exist or real problems that have to do with 16 the child support schedule, I would just really like to 17 encourage you to please sign in and speak. 18 I do want to also point out that this is being 19 recorded tonight, so we do have recording equipment and 20 I hopefully remember if the evening goes on any length 21 and we have new people coming in, just to remind people 22 that tonight's comments and remarks are being recorded. 23 The amount of time available will vary based on the 24 number of people that sign up. However, I don't at 25 this point, since we have only a handful of folks 3 1 signed up, think that we will have any major time 2 limits. We do have a time limit on the meeting ending 3 time. And I've been requested by my panelists, 4 co-panelists here to remember that it would probably 5 be a good idea at about an hour point or so to take a 6 small break in case anybody needs a refreshment or just 7 to get up and stretch their legs. So we'll hopefully 8 build that in. And if for any reason I forget, I've 9 asked my panelists to remind me, but I sure urge the 10 audience to remind me as well, a break is good for all 11 of us sometimes just to get a little stretch break. 12 There are some handouts that were at the front 13 desk, and again I urge that you grab those handouts. 14 There's a survey document, some questions we would 15 really like you to take the opportunity to -- excuse 16 me -- read those questions, and after you've had the 17 chance to read those questions, fill out your answers 18 to them and share them with us. 19 The other thing that you can do, there's an email 20 address that's on the front of the document that's 21 posted here right on the table, and would sure 22 encourage any suggestions or ideas, concerns to be sent 23 to the Division of Child Support at the email address 24 that's provided below. 25 I also want to take a quick second just to ask 4 1 Mr. Greg Howe to raise his hand, if he doesn't mind, 2 I'm picking on him little bit. Mr. Howe is with The 3 Other Parent, and he's got a table or a booth set up in 4 the back, I guess it's really a table, with some 5 materials, and I would encourage you that if you have 6 the opportunity to talk with Mr. Howe, and he's got 7 some great information to share with you and may be 8 able to answer some additional questions that you could 9 have. 10 And there are staff here from the Division of 11 Child Support that would also like to make themselves 12 available to answer case-specific questions or deal 13 with specific problems that may not be appropriate in 14 this venue to actually get into the case details, but 15 if they could take the information that you're 16 interested in and some contact information, then they 17 could follow-up with you later and provide answers 18 to you. I know we would be really interested and they 19 would be really interested in helping. 20 Finally before I ask the workgroup members to 21 introduce themselves and identify the organization that 22 they're with or who they represent, I would like to 23 take just a quick second to cover a few things, cover 24 why the workgroup is here tonight, why it exists, and 25 hopefully provide a little bit of context about what 5 1 the workgroup is doing and will be doing. 2 Under federal and state law, the Child Support 3 Guidelines are to be reviewed at least every four 4 years, and as our audience I'm sure knows, the Child 5 Support Guidelines are the tool that the courts and the 6 administrative process uses to set or establish a 7 parent's child support obligation. The law requires 8 that the schedule be reviewed every four years, and 9 that hasn't happened within the time that's required, 10 so that came to the attention of the federal government 11 and they expressed their concerns to us. And the 12 governor directed the Department of Social and Health 13 Services to form a workgroup to examine problems with 14 the schedule, identify problems with the schedule, and 15 if there were appropriate solutions to recommend, to 16 forward those on to a legislature in a report by 17 January 15th, 2006. And it's the legislature, it's up 18 to the legislature to make those changes to consider 19 the report, evaluate the recommendations, and make 20 changes. 21 The workgroup felt it was critically important to 22 listen to parents prior to finalizing any 23 recommendations. And in order to do that, we have 24 scheduled -- this is the second of two public meetings 25 where we're asking for that public feedback and public 6 1 input. And our format tonight is really simple, please 2 sign up, I'll call your name, I would simply ask you to 3 restate your name and whether you're -- if you're with 4 an organization, identify that. And we're here; the 5 other half of the simple process is we're here to 6 listen and learn. And I would ask you to please try to 7 focus the majority of your comments on the child 8 support schedule and how you might suggest that the 9 child support schedule be improved, what 10 recommendations you would have about addressing some 11 concerns that you might have. And I would also ask 12 that you take the time to treat those who are speaking 13 while you're listening with the same courtesy and 14 respect that you would hope to hear and receive in 15 return. I know this can be a very difficult issue to 16 talk about. And I really enjoyed our meeting last 17 week, we had some excellent comments, and the candor 18 and the openness of the parents that were there, to me, 19 was both refreshing and remarkable and I appreciated 20 the fact the parents were willing to share the depth of 21 their concerns. And I would simply say I continue to 22 welcome your candor in equal measure with your 23 courtesy, of course. 24 So let me now ask for the group to introduce 25 itself. And I think I'll start down on the end with 7 1 Linda Langston. 2 PANELIST LINDA LANGSTON: My name is Linda 3 Langston, I work for the Washington State Association 4 of Prosecuting Attorneys. I'm Director of the Support 5 Enforcement Project for the Prosecutor's Association. 6 Prosecuting attorneys represent the Division of Child 7 Support primarily in paternity, modification, and 8 judicial enforcement actions. And my project 9 coordinates the activities of all thirty-seven county 10 prosecutors who contract with the Division of Child 11 Support to take case referrals. 12 PANELIST ANGELA QUAVIS: My name is Angela Quavis 13 and I'm a Deputy Prosecuting Attorney in Whatcom 14 County, and I have been working both in Snohomish 15 County and Whatcom County in Superior Court working 16 child support schedule and child support matters in 17 Superior Court for the last sixteen years. 18 PANELIST MICHELLE MADDOX: My name is Michelle 19 Maddox, I'm an attorney with Northwest Justice Projects 20 CLEAR Legal Hotline. CLEAR stands for Coordinated 21 Legal Education Advice and Referral. And we do 22 statewide advice and referral on various legal issues, 23 including family law as the majority. And we serve 24 both obligors and obligees. 25 PANELIST KATHLEEN SCHMIDT: My name is Kathleen 8 1 Schmidt, I'm in a private practice in Wenatchee, 2 Washington. I'm a member of this group because I am a 3 member of the family law section of the Washington 4 State Bar Association. The section has approximately 5 1,100 members who all practice family law in one form 6 or another throughout the state. Our members elect a 7 body called the Family Law Executive Committee, which 8 essentially governs the section from year to year. As 9 a section, we are oftentimes asked to comment on any 10 type of proposed legislation that might be considered 11 each session that has anything to do with family law. 12 Approximately two years ago our group started 13 looking at the existing Child Support Guideline and 14 working on a position that we thought we would want to 15 take. When this workgroup was formed, we were asked if 16 someone from our group would be willing to participate, 17 and that turned out to be me. 18 In addition to meeting with this workgroup, the 19 Family Law Section held a meeting in mid-August at 20 which we asked our members and others to come and 21 participate and give us information about the two PSI 22 reports that have been prepared that this group is 23 working with. 24 There has been some interest expressed in emails 25 that we've received for each of us to talk a little bit 9 1 about sort of who we are in addition to our 2 professional responsibilities. I would indicate that 3 I've practiced law in Washington since 1977. I started 4 my work as a lawyer in a legal services office in 5 Olympia, and one of the other staff attorneys happened 6 to be Judge Wickham who is seated next to me. So Judge 7 Wickham and I have known one another since that time, 8 and of course at that time we were both working in a 9 legal services office. I was the attorney responsible 10 for all family law cases that were being handled in 11 that office. 12 Over the course of my practice, I have 13 represented both mothers and fathers, I have worked as 14 a part-time court commissioner, and I heard the non- 15 support calendar in my county for a two-year period of 16 time, which essentially was people who were coming into 17 court to have their orders enforced or perhaps 18 modified. 19 Throughout the course of my practice, obviously 20 I have represented both men and women in divorce cases 21 and support modifications and in anything that might be 22 related to family. I'm a single parent. I've been the 23 recipient of child support, and many years ago I was a 24 foster parent and received foster care payments for 25 about four years for a child who lived with me before I 10 1 had my own family. 2 PANELIST CHRIS WICKHAM: And I was just telling 3 Kathleen before that it was really nice to be sitting 4 on this panel with her again because I hadn't seen her 5 for a number of years. My name is Chris Wickham -- 6 excuse me -- and I'm a judge from Thurston County. I 7 worked as a court commissioner in Thurston County for 8 thirteen years before that. I also was admitted to 9 practice in Washington in 1977. I'm admitted to 10 practice in Connecticut and California as well. I was 11 elected to my first term as Superior Court judge last 12 fall. 13 My work as a court commissioner before that was 14 in family and juvenile court, and so I heard many cases 15 involving child support issues over those years, and 16 have been interested in the issue for some time. 17 Personally, I have also been a single parent. I 18 have paid child support and received child support at 19 different times, and so I think I understand the pain 20 of these issues as well as the practicality of these 21 issues, both from a personal and professional 22 standpoint. 23 In this group, I'm here because I'm a member of 24 the Washington State Superior Court Judges Association. 25 There's a group of judges and commissioners across the 11 1 state who meet regularly to discuss issues involving 2 family and children and whether or not the law is 3 working as well as it can to support families and 4 children. And so I represent that group, and attempt 5 to take a position that's consistent with the wide 6 range of experience that those judges and commissioners 7 have, and I'm glad to be here and I appreciate those of 8 you who have come out tonight. 9 PANELIST ELLEN NOLAN: Thank you. My name is 10 Ellen Nolan. I work for Division of Child Support, and 11 I just want to echo some of the things that David said 12 about the surveys and the priority issues that we have 13 as handouts at the back of the table. 14 First I want to say don't assume that we've made 15 any decisions on all of these priorities, and so that's 16 why we're seeking your input on these issues. And so 17 if you have time tonight, we would really appreciate it 18 if you would take the time to fill out the surveys and 19 you can leave them with us. If you don't have time 20 tonight or if you have other issues about the child 21 support schedule, we really would encourage you to use 22 the email address or the post office address that we 23 have posted up front here tonight, and we'll take your 24 comments and make sure that we forward those to the 25 members of the workgroup for their consideration. So I 12 1 would encourage you to do so tonight. Thank you. 2 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: And I'm David 3 Stillman, soon to be the director of the Division of 4 Child Support. 5 PANELIST MARVIN CHARLES: My name is Marvin 6 Charles. And along with my wife Jeannette Charles, we 7 started -- back in about 2000, we started a program 8 called DADS, Divine Alternatives for Dad Services. 9 This program was based loosely on our lives. We were 10 both drug addicts. We had lost our kids to the State 11 of Washington through the CPS, Department of Child 12 Protective Services. And so there came a turning point 13 in my life where we -- that needed to change. And so 14 what we did, I went to the CPS, they gave me a list of 15 obligations, a list of criterias that I had to meet. 16 So in meeting those criteria, we were able to, along 17 with my wife, put our family back together. But some 18 of the obstacles and hurdles that we met along that 19 journey, we sat up one day and said, How could we help 20 other folks in our community, which means low income 21 folks. That's the community I came out of; in fact, 22 I'm still there. 23 I was looking at some work that we do in our 24 office, and in the last six months, we have saved 25 $270,000 due to modifications and conference boards. 13 1 Now why is that? It's because most of the folks that 2 we work with don't know how to fill out those papers, 3 don't know how to assess or address the child support 4 system. So that's what we do, we help them do that. 5 Why do we do it? Because we believe that when some of 6 those issues and hurdles are moved out of the way, then 7 the family begins to not only heal, but maybe even come 8 together at some point. Now that doesn't mean that 9 they might not wind up living together or being 10 together, but that child will have the benefit of both 11 parents. And we seem to be seeing it happening in the 12 community which I come out of. 13 So again, my name is Marvin Charles, I represent 14 the DADS program. I sit on this panel because I would 15 like to continue to believe that I could be a voice for 16 the community in which I live in. 17 PANELIST WALT BALTER: My name is Walt Balter. I 18 work -- I'm a paying parent. I have six children that 19 I pay child support, eight children all together. I 20 also work with the Separated Parenting Access and 21 Resource Center, which is a nonprofit that I helped 22 organize. I'm not the webmaster for that website, but 23 I do provide content there. I'm on Marvin's board of 24 directors, and I work with the Washington State 25 Fatherhood coalition, which is an organization that 14 1 basically is just a loose coalition of different state 2 agencies and nonprofits that are working to promote 3 father involvement in children's lives. And I was 4 asked to be on this committee as a representative of 5 paying parents. 6 PANELIST MARY GOFF: Hi, my name is Mary Goff, 7 and I'm a legal analyst for the Administrative Office 8 of the Courts, and I staff the Pattern Forms Committee, 9 which is the statewide committee that maintains the 10 pattern forms. And what you'll be familiar with in 11 this context is the child support worksheets, and 12 definition standards and instructions, and orders of 13 child support and other family law related forms. 14 PANELIST KIMBER MARTIN: Hi, my name is Kimber 15 Martin, and I'm sitting on this panel as a custodial 16 parent; so in other words, I receive money or ought to. 17 PANELIST GEORGE SMILEY: Thank you. My name is 18 George Smiley. I'm the manager of the Division of 19 Child Support's Conference Board Program, which is an 20 informal dispute resolution process. And I'm -- I've 21 been in private practice -- I was in private practice 22 since 1975 and I started with the Puget Sound Legal 23 Assistance Foundation in Tacoma. I was there three or 24 four, five years, something like that, then I was in 25 private practice for about twenty years in Tacoma. I 15 1 was mostly a domestic relations lawyer. We represented 2 husbands, wives, mothers, fathers. And I've been 3 active or I've tried to be active in child support 4 issues, all the issues connected, other than -- and 5 besides just the money, ever since I started practicing 6 law. So I want to welcome everybody here tonight. I 7 work with a woman named Teresa Owens who is out -- 8 right outside the door there. If you want to ask us 9 questions about your specific case, feel free to come 10 and do that. We will maybe be -- We can help you, 11 maybe we can't, maybe we can steer you down the right 12 road. You don't have to tell us who you are if you 13 don't want to, and we'll answer specific questions as 14 well. This forum is kind of a general thing, but if 15 you've got something specific you want to talk about, 16 talk to Ms. Owens out there or catch me when I'm off 17 this podium. Thanks a lot. 18 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: All right, well thank 19 you all for your introductions and all the additional 20 information you were willing to share. Let's just get 21 back straight into that simple format and start hearing 22 from folks that are here. 23 First on the list is Mark Mahnkey. 24 MR. MAHNKEY: My name is Mark Mahnkey, and I'm 25 one of the few people that's been certified as a 16 1 political dad filed by the King County Sheriff's 2 Office. Beyond that, I served thirteen years on the 3 school board and it was (indiscernible) state school 4 director association. Ten years on my local library 5 board. What I want to say is I'm not just some drunk 6 at the bar. I'm familiar with the process. I've been 7 in the process. I've also outside the process. 8 I want to make a couple highlights of some stuff 9 you heard from me last week, for the folks here. And, 10 you know, I want to tell you about my personal 11 experience with the agency and some of the things that 12 happened to me that probably shouldn't have, and I 13 would hope that you take a look at that. 14 Right now we're considering making changes based 15 on some research that's largely about attitude and 16 would not pass any high school class in this state. In 17 other words, the assumptions that we're working from 18 are not good. 19 Number two, we're using the Income Insurance 20 Model. The Income Insurance Model data was designed by 21 Bureau of Land Statistics, United States Department of 22 Agriculture, both of whom very carefully say do not use 23 this data to apply to individual circumstance. Also, 24 that data is proportional, and when it's proportional 25 it assigns a much higher value cost to children than it 17 1 should because it's not the marginal cost, it's 2 proportional cost. It's three people in the car going 3 down the road, a third of the car is attributed to 4 the kid, even though the parents have ability 5 (indiscernible). 6 That model also has interesting anomalies because 7 it also includes the cost of peace, love, and 8 treatments, health club ownerships for the custodial 9 parent. And as I challenged last week, last Monday, 10 anybody who is willing from your group or OSC to 11 defend that, please step forward, and nobody stepped 12 forward. That system also looks at a burden on the 13 paying parent, mostly men, to demonstrate by even money 14 that they were doing a third part of the income shares, 15 however, the custodial parent, the receiving parent has 16 no similar obligation. The paying parent can have 17 sanctions even though we supposedly did away with 18 debtors (indiscernible) and this happened some time 19 ago. The fact of the matter is we haven't. The 20 sanctions are heavy if you don't pay the money. But 21 the receiving parent also has an obligation, whatever 22 that income share is, 20 percent, 30 percent, 40 23 percent, but there's no requirement on the part of that 24 parent to demonstrate that indeed they are fulfilling 25 their part of the obligation. 18 1 Lastly, about three things, number one, there's 2 no credit given to the noncustodial parent for the 3 residential time that the kid is with them, and even a, 4 quote, standard visitation that's 70 percent of time. 5 There's no consideration for the tax benefits that 6 typically accrued for the custodial parent, earned 7 income, filing as head of household, and receiving that 8 income toll free -- toll free -- income tax free. 9 Your schedule as currently exists causes an 10 increase as income increases is a percentaged income, 11 that's what the state hold demands, yet there is not 12 one single second that shows the child care cost 13 increases a percentage of income as your income 14 increases. 15 So what do we need to do? We need to simply not 16 summon up the child support to be paid at one-half of 17 the amount that we pay foster parents, because we know 18 that that is the real number to meet the state laws 19 very simple requirement for care of the child. 20 Anything on top of that is top spin. We should teach 21 our kids a valuable lesson in a capitalist society that 22 you will benefit by thrift, by education, by prudence. 23 And when the kid is with this parent or that parent, 24 let the kid benefit from that model on either side good 25 or bad and teach them a valuable lesson. 19 1 Okay. What happened to me as a thirty-three year 2 child support paying parent? OSC has not always been 3 very nice, OSC has not always been honest. Let me just 4 run down, let me count the ways here. OSC is a cash 5 line bank account even though I was paying as agreed. 6 I was paying as agreed, but they attached my bank 7 account anyway right after I wrote my rent check, right 8 after I wrote my monthly bills, I burned $300 in bank 9 fees. Money that could have been spent on my children. 10 OSC has attached my (indiscernible), of course my OSC. 11 My support enforcement officer courteously called me 12 two days before and said, Gee, Mark, I'm really sorry, 13 we made a mistake. In two days we're going to attach 14 your card, we can't call it off. It will take us 15 thirty days to undue it. Well, GC, that's nice of you 16 to call me and warn me, but why did you make the 17 mistake. 18 Also, I was prevented from taking a job that 19 would have increased my income by over two times. 20 Certainly having money to support my children. 21 Unfortunately it required international travel. I did 22 not have my password, but the custodial parent called 23 you guys and said, Give bozo his password, money -- all 24 money is green, I want him to have this job. And what 25 did telephone folks at Support Enforcement do? They 20 1 tried to talk and (indiscernible). 2 At one point they left me with so little money 3 that I didn't know how I was going to feed my kids when 4 they had their custodial time with me. Not to mention 5 the game play stations and other nifty stuff at their 6 mom's. Well, when they came to my house, they played 7 Pong on a black and white TV that I watched when I was 8 their age. 9 Last thing, they misreported me to the credit 10 bureau repeatedly. Over two years increasing my months 11 of credit, even though the agency issued no less than 12 three letters saying I was paying on time and had paid 13 on time the last six and a half years which was agreed 14 I was with the agency. After ten phone calls and ten 15 emails over a period of four months, we finally drove 16 down and found the problem, but an employee reporting 17 directly to the director of OSC, one Charlotte DeVoss 18 Shipley said, and I quote: "We know we are reporting 19 incorrectly and we will not fix it". When I told 20 director Ray Al Weaver, gave him a (indiscernible) 21 appearance, quote: "You will fix it or I will 22 embarrass your agency and expose your incompetence". 23 He chose to sanction me in writing. And I guess he was 24 pissed off because I wrote fourteen legislators that 25 I'm personally acquainted with and said, Look, here's 21 1 your agency, they're making a mistake, they admitted to 2 it and they're not fixing it. 3 And I'm saving, of course, the (indiscernible) 4 one for last. Judge Wickham, this one is for you, as 5 the Bud Light commercial says, it demonstrates 6 contempt the agency has for not only paying parents but 7 for the court. Back in my (indiscernible) just a year 8 or two ago, I was a pretty bright boy. I realized I 9 was paying myself by the 1st of the month, that that's 10 a (indiscernible) child support normally would be due 11 on the 1st of the month, and I said, Those guys are 12 going to deal with me later. So I've arranged in the 13 decree to have child support due on the 5th 14 (indiscernible). 15 Guess what, I've been playing a consistent 16 relationship (indiscernible) reporting directly to the 17 agency director, again one Charlene DeVoss Shipley told 18 me, quote: "Your support is due on the 1st of the 19 month." Further quote: "We don't have to go by the 20 court's order." I think that's damn embarrassing, that 21 the agency would say we don't have to go by the court's 22 order. So not only were they disrespectful to 23 clients, but (indiscernible) they're also disrespectful 24 to the court. 25 Now I need just to focus (indiscernible) let me 22 1 tell you that those things happened on somebody else's 2 watch not David's. But let me close with a quote from 3 U.S. Senator Harry Reed in Nevada: "Perhaps the 4 greatest abuse of health is to have the ability to help 5 but choose to do nothing." 6 Thanks for having the meeting in the Tri-Cities. 7 It was a great day for a right of pain. 8 (Soft laughter.) 9 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Mahnkey. 11 Next we have Jerry Lee. Mr. Lee? 12 Thank you very much. 13 MR. LEE: Well, I've been a farmer for my entire 14 life, well over thirty years. I've paid all my bills 15 my entire life except for the past four years. I have 16 a five-year-old child that I love with all my heart. I 17 would do anything to keep that child, to be a father of 18 that parent. But the State of Washington and their 19 court system has stolen that child from me by force, 20 then set child support so high there's no possible way 21 that I could ever pay it! I've never made an income 22 being a farmer. I've paid my bills, I've made the 23 rent, and then after this child was born, I'm trying to 24 get to be a parent after the -- after the mother runs 25 off, takes the child through the court system, the 23 1 child takes the -- the court system takes the child 2 away from me and forces me on going to court, to court, 3 to court, to court for a thousand times it seems like. 4 Now I'm driving a thousand miles a month just to see my 5 child. And I've got no income today. And over four 6 years of this, I'm over $60,000 in debt on my good name 7 because I paid my debts for over the past thirty years. 8 Now all my accounts, I can't pay any of them because 9 I've got no income, no money, and the State is trying 10 to collect $500 a month from me and I'm trying to pay 11 my bills. I can't even pay my power bill or my phone 12 bill. I got a call from the phone company today that 13 they're shutting my phone off. I got a bill from the 14 PUD today; I can't pay that. 15 And I'll challenge any of you to come up with any 16 good reason why any child support should be above the 17 foster care that the State pays foster parents. How in 18 the world can one child be more important than these 19 other child. And I'm going to tell you right now, 20 people in that Division of Child Support part of these 21 system that is destroying parents, and the Superior 22 Court judges are destroying parents when they take a 23 child away. They have no authority to leave one child 24 with one parent, a custodial parent, and another child 25 a noncustodial parent. Both of those parents have a 24 1 duty to that child. You're taking away the duty. 2 You're destroying that child's life by making one 3 parent more important than the other, and that's what 4 you're doing. 5 And if anybody has got any questions, I'll 6 entertain them; otherwise I guess I'm done. 7 (Brief pause.) 8 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Lee, 9 appreciate it. 10 Next we have Zelma Jackson. 11 MS. JACKSON: Good evening, and I welcome you all 12 to the Tri-Cities, and this very important job that 13 you're doing. And I could feel both the pain of those 14 in the audience and also my pain for what I know about 15 Child Support Services. 16 My name is Zelma Jackson. I'm the chair of the 17 Washington State Commission of African-American 18 Affairs. And the statement as far as the commission is 19 concerned, it is a tough job because those that are 20 tremendously affected on the negative side of the 21 support supporting system basically are 22 underprivileged, underserved, and those with no income. 23 I wish I had a remedy to help you all fix that system, 24 but I have none to give, except that I hope that you 25 keep in mind that those that can least represent 25 1 themselves and see they're not in this room today, and 2 no matter where you go across the state, they perhaps 3 would not be in the room. One probably is a language 4 barrier, the other is just being intimidated by the 5 fact of the literature that is produced, it is not in 6 the common (indiscernible) third grade level. And so I 7 wish I could tell you how to fix that, but that's how 8 life gets. 9 Now, let me change from being Chair of the 10 African-American Commission and be the parent, the 11 grandparent, and talk about treatment of non dead-beat 12 dads. I'm proud to say that I have an eight-year-old 13 granddaughter and a son that pays his support payment 14 every single month and on time. But there are some 15 issues along the success side that I think needs to be 16 brought to the table. I could recommend that you treat 17 cases equitable. For instance, if a parent is paying 18 on time and have a record of being on time, when that 19 parent, for some particular reason, missed or is late 20 on a payment, that there should be some kind of a red 21 flag within the system on these types of cases, success 22 -- I don't know what word to call it -- but the cases 23 where you don't have a problem, so that the parent can 24 be contacted, either by a worker or by mail instead of 25 a hard, threatening letter. Oftentimes, and I think 26 1 that many of you understand, oftentime this starts the 2 downward spiraling negative relation between the system 3 and the parent. And that negative impact not only 4 affects both parents, it affects the child. And that's 5 the system which always be equivocating to extra 6 dollars and spent. 7 Next, take into consideration other resources 8 being paid by the noncustodial parents. In loving 9 families and in normal families, there is more than 10 just that basic $200 a month that goes to the custodial 11 parents. Let me give be the first to say in my family, 12 we buy every stitch of clothes that my grandbaby wears, 13 and that is all school, summer, fall. The custodial 14 parent does not have to pay. And the reason why, 15 because we love her and we want to make sure she has 16 the best that we can give her, irrespective. Not only 17 that, my son pays for all extra activities; that is, 18 music lessons, dance lesson, other community 19 activities. You cannot regulate the love that has to 20 come out, and I don't know how to tell you that -- what 21 to do with that. But there should be some kind of -- 22 There should be something to say that that parent is 23 doing more than what is regulated in the decree. 24 And third, the system needs to be more holistic. 25 It needs to be approached that treats the parent and 27 1 the children like they are human. You can't, again, 2 force regulation to make people human. Now, I would 3 say it's unfortunate that as adults, we allow ourselves 4 to be in a position where we bring forth beautiful 5 spirits into this world, and then we fight over those 6 beautiful spirits. I have no answer to that, but I 7 would dare say let us be human and take this system and 8 make it holistic. And you've got to put feelings into 9 this. I know it's a hard thing with legally-wise, but 10 there's human-wise. What I heard Mr. Charles speak 11 about coming in from the brink of disaster to return 12 his children and his family back to a length of 13 productivity. 14 So as a grandparent and as a community person, I 15 will say thank you, but also make this system as human 16 as you can get. 17 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you very much. 18 Next we have Greg Howe. 19 MR. HOWE: Thank you, Dave. My name is Greg Howe 20 and I am a representative of The Other Parent as well. 21 As individuals (indiscernible) there are just a few 22 things that I want to bring up as well, some of it to 23 recapture prior meetings, and some other things that 24 are just going to be a little more personal and some 25 cases (inaudible), come across something I wanted to 28 1 bring up. 2 One of the things that I want to talk about is 3 the last meeting some of you folks weren't about to 4 hear about, there was a lot of feeling, there was a lot 5 of empathy out there for a lot of folks. And the board 6 listened very intently to it. And I've got to give the 7 library credit, you guys hung around until 9:30, an 8 extra hour above and beyond, so people were really 9 appreciative to all you folks (inaudible), so I want to 10 thank you again on their behalf. 11 Some of the things that I want to say that 12 actually came out in the last meeting as well that were 13 brought up from a couple of noncustodial mothers or 14 they were second wives or second girlfriends they 15 brought up. Just a couple of situations they're 16 actually facing and talking about doing right now are, 17 which is a symptom of this system being broken and why 18 we're having to fix it, and hopefully not just getting 19 a facelift of the existing system and tearing it down 20 and redoing it. But people, when you get people to 21 come up and talk about their situation and they 22 actually say they're looking at marrying this 23 gentleman, but they don't want to marry him because 24 they don't want their income counted as support to go 25 against to pay for their child. They're actually 29 1 considering their way of life based upon the system and 2 how it's impacted their livelihood. 3 There was another couple, another lady that came 4 up to the podium, and she talked about the fact that 5 she wanted to marry this guy, but what she's going to 6 do is -- what they're talking about doing is they're 7 not going to get married, but they do want to have a 8 child. So what they're going to do at that point is 9 they're not going to get married, and then she's going 10 to claim support against that father as well. That way 11 it balances out the cost between their two children, 12 because otherwise the first kid gets all the child 13 support money, the second kid is going to get a quarter 14 of that same amount of dollar value. 15 If you were looking at such a system that is 16 tearing people's decisions apart about how they're 17 going to marry, how they're going to raise their kids, 18 and now that child is it not going to have a bonded 19 mother and father either because they want to balance 20 out the child support. So those are things affecting 21 people's lives. 22 I've also got a couple of these things that I 23 wanted to bring up as well that were brought up. 24 Linda, this one is directly in response to you, 25 because you brought up the cost. 30 1 PANELIST LINDA LANGSTON: Um-hmm. 2 MR. HOWE: One of the things, I'm not sure if 3 you're aware of it, but they look at the needs 4 standard. One of the things that this group is looking 5 at is what is the needs standard that costs an 6 individual to live? Well, what they're saying is that 7 as an individual, you can live off of $1,021 per month, 8 that's all you need. At that point, you can take $25 9 and you could pay your child support. That's the 10 minimum that you would get. But that's -- And so, 11 Linda, you brought that one up and said, Hey, are you 12 sure it's $1,021 for you to live off, but at that point 13 you can only take $25 as a minimum. But that's not 14 actually how it works in the courtrooms, and if you've 15 been through the system, you would know that. We've 16 got one of our guys right now, he actually brings home 17 over $1,800 a month. They take over $800 and he's 18 left with just over $1,000 per month. He's at your 19 needs standard, and if you would like his case number, 20 I can get that for you. But that is exactly -- So it's 21 not just $1,021 for you to take $25 out of you. You 22 can make $1,800, but if you've got a couple of kids 23 and you've got that life standard that you're suppose 24 to supply for, it's not child support, it's the way of 25 living support is what it really should be called, and 31 1 they'll jack that from you (indiscernible) $1,021. 2 Plus we've got one other case, a gentleman Chad 3 Shaffer who talked last week, he's a gentleman who is 4 with our organization as well. He is just now in the 5 throws of this with a six-month-old daughter. He is 6 paying -- He has twelve hours of short, 7 (indiscernible), so they (indiscernible) is like 8 Wednesday through Sunday, Sunday through Wednesday, 9 he's twelve hours short (indiscernible), but for the 10 temporary parenting plan that they're under right now, 11 they went in and then they judged him, he paid a full 12 child support amount of $520 per month with their 13 combined incomes. What's happened since that happened? 14 Well, they've got the child support situation figured 15 out, he pays the full amount. He doesn't get credit 16 for his half of the time at all, he pays the full 17 amount of child support that the schedule allows, and 18 he pays all medical and dental on top of that. He also 19 pays some of the day care, which is about $600 per 20 month. So it's $1,100 from the average costs. They're 21 not including the child support calculations, nor does 22 he get credit for shared time. This gentleman should 23 definitely get credit for shared time. This 24 (indiscernible) child support schedule, he is likely 25 going to have to sell his home. Shared time credit is 32 1 definitely a consideration as you're looking at it 2 and I hope that you do. I know that issue 3 (indiscernible) passed, I believe. I'm not positive 4 about that, but I think it has been, but right now, 5 it's left up to judicial discretion, and I very rarely, 6 rarely have seen that refuted. So I think that's 7 something that should definitely be talked about. 8 One of the things I think about child support, I 9 don't think -- I think if you leave it the way that it 10 is, it should not be called child support. I think a 11 new name needs to come up for it, because we're not 12 talking about what it costs to support the child, we're 13 talking about, and it's in the rights, the standard of 14 living for that support. If the household is split, 15 you want to maintain the standard of living for that 16 child. So call it the "standard of living support", 17 don't call it "child support" because it's not what it 18 costs to raise a kid. So I think a new name needs to 19 be developed for that. I think we're actually saying 20 it would be great taking a step forward and making that 21 happen. 22 We've all heard it a couple of times when we 23 talked about that last week as well, that the cost for 24 raising a child in the foster care system. My 25 understanding is it's about $400 per month. I'm not 33 1 sure if that's right or wrong, but I believe it's about 2 $400 per month. Let's say that it is for the sake of 3 argument. If the State says it costs that amount of 4 dollars to raise a child, then why does it have to 5 match in child support transfer for the parents as 6 well? The State is assuming that if you're a foster 7 parent, you want to accept responsibility to raise that 8 child, so we're going to subsidize you raising that 9 parent. Well, same thing in child support, that other 10 parent is accepting wanting the responsibility to raise 11 that child, so you know what, the noncustodial parent 12 who also wanted to raise that child who doesn't get 13 the right to and is suffering because of it should only 14 have to pay to subsidize that position which that 15 individual wants it in the first place. If you don't 16 want it, then re-evaluate it. 17 One of the situations that I have that I have 18 going on is that with the shared income one as well, 19 Mark already brought it up. What evidence is there, 20 and we would like to see if there's a study, and I'd 21 be wide open to it if somebody finished it, there's 22 more that the -- the more money that you send the 23 child, that money actually goes to better the child. 24 One of the arguments that I've heard is, Well, it can 25 advantage the other parent. The other parent, if the 34 1 custodial parent gets the money, and they're having to 2 raise their standard of living, well, that makes the 3 child happier, okay. So that's not child support 4 again, just because the fact you're calling it. That's 5 more like spousal maintenance or ex-girlfriend 6 maintenance or whatever it is. But that's the way that 7 situation is. So we would like to see where is -- what 8 proof you have the more the money that's shown that's 9 standard of living. And I don't know, is there a study 10 that shows that, can I ask that question? 11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Can you repeat your 12 question? 13 MR. HOWE: Is there a study that I can find 14 pointing towards that shows that if your money is given 15 above and beyond the needs standard for a child, that 16 actually does in fact better the standard of living? 17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Does anyone on the 18 panel want to tackle this question? No? 19 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: I don't know the 20 answer to it, I don't know if there is a study or not, 21 so I -- 22 (Inaudible male voice.) 23 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Actually, I can speak 24 to it. The old Espanshade study dealt with this, and 25 it was really the foundation, I believe, for many of 35 1 the -- for the original income sharers models that were 2 developed in the mid 1980s. I believe it addresses it 3 directly. And I -- You know, I hesitate slightly 4 because I can't be absolutely certain, but I believe it 5 is the old Espanshade study that talked about that. 6 MR. HOWE: We also talked about it would be great 7 and I didn't get in last time is, is child support 8 spent on the child, how did you know that. One lady 9 came up and said, Well, make sure -- just like the 10 Welfare system has, make sure it's a debit card. It's 11 a great idea, because that way the debit card can keep 12 track of all the costs. The concerns should be, 13 though, that how do you know that if somebody goes to 14 Target, they didn't buy a whole bunch of other clothing 15 and sell them and not a bunch of things that actually 16 support the child. If you have a debit card that 17 applies directly towards child support, I think that's 18 a good idea. I think it should also be kept on an 19 account so that both the custodial parent and not the 20 custodial parent can go in, and they should look to 21 ensure that those receipts are spent on things for the 22 child. It's child support, right? So it should be 23 things like kid's cough medicine, diapers, whatever 24 else it is, you should be able to justify that. So I 25 hope that you keep that (indiscernible). 36 1 Another thing that I think -- I just want to go 2 through some really of my own situation, and I 3 mentioned it a few times, so I'm just going to give you 4 a numbers crunch here for how my situation is. My 5 income level, I shouldn't pay them $1,867 per month in 6 child support, that's where my level came out at. The 7 judge in (indiscernible) deviated downward and said 8 we'll, we're going to figure it out for $1,250 per 9 month. So I pay $1,250 per month to raise my son. I 10 have for five years. You multiply that out, it's about 11 $14,000 a year. I've been paying now for five and a 12 half years, so now I'm well in the $70,000 range so far 13 for my kid and he's six and a half. So I pay $1,250 14 per month. On top of that, I pay all medical and 15 dental, and I pay up to $500 per month in day care if 16 she puts him in day care. I guess I'm lucky because 17 she decided that when she got that child support award 18 of $1,250, she quit her job a month later and hasn't 19 worked a day since. So for the past five years, she 20 hasn't actually worked. So I did the calculations on 21 this. And based upon the USDA standards for the 22 average living on high -- the average spending on high 23 income household, when you add everything up, it came 24 to $875 per month the USDA says it should cost to raise 25 my child in a high income household. 37 1 So my question is, the $875 per month, and that's 2 supposed to include everything, where is the rest of my 3 $1,250 going? You've got $375 per month that I'm 4 paying above and beyond what this system says. Not the 5 needs to raise a child, what the average family in a 6 high income level would spend just to have funds for. 7 So where is that $375 per month going? Well, I've got 8 a pretty good idea where it's going, because we just 9 got through fourteen accounts of contempt in court and 10 I see nails, I see hair, I see shopping over the web, I 11 see women's clothing receipts on there. So it's a 12 pretty good idea since she hasn't worked in five years 13 where that money is actually going. And that $375 a 14 month equates to $4,500 per year, which also goes to 15 the fact she's got -- she's got new breast implants 16 that is worth forty grand as well. It's kind of a 17 personal situation, but you know what, when you are 18 paying $1,250 per month and you walk around and you 19 know that your other party hasn't worked in five years 20 and she can go around and get cosmetic surgery and get 21 enhancements, that's a frustrating situation for a 22 noncustodial parent to live with. And I hope that you 23 take those kinds of situations, I know a lot of other 24 ones are out there as well. 25 When you talk about the housing standards, when 38 1 you do your (indiscernible) for needs standards of 2 living, one of the other thing that I think you should 3 take into -- and I brought this up last time as well -- 4 you should go by a needs standard by communities. I 5 live in King County. Average cost of housing in King 6 County everybody here, a lot of you folks probably in 7 King County, is 450 for average cost of a home. But my 8 son lives in Castlerock. The average cost of a home 9 there is about 150 grand. I don't think you should 10 base the needs standard on one individual standard of 11 living of the paying apparent when the other parent 12 lives in a completely set of demographics in income 13 values, because again, they don't -- that money is not 14 going for that child support. I think you have to have 15 accountability. I hope you go to the debit card 16 situation where they have proof what they're paying the 17 money on. If they're not paying that money, I think 18 they should be entitled to a reimbursement of it if you 19 can prove it. And I think that accountability law is 20 crucial. 21 I think -- It seems like I have one more -- Oh. 22 As far as accountability, this one would go towards 23 Kathleen, I think you're on the Family Services Group, 24 I think, I believe I heard you say, Family Law 25 Services? One of -- 39 1 PANELIST KATHLEEN SCHMIDT: Family Law 2 (inaudible). 3 MR. HOWE: One of the things that I think would 4 be a really good thing to do would be that in the child 5 support obligation (indiscernible) go through your 6 tables when you figure out how many both parties are 7 supposed to pay. Well, I think that in your court 8 awards in your court orders, how much I pay is on the 9 court orders on the obligee. Other people are 10 (inaudible) pay obligor. 11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: (Inaudible). 12 MR. HOWE: I'm the payer. That's all I am is a 13 payer of money, so. But in the court order, if I don't 14 pay the amount of money on the court, I think then, I 15 could be charged in contempt, I can go to jail. Her, 16 on the other hand, her calculation came out to her $125 17 a month that she was supposed to be obligated for, is 18 not on a court order. I think on all court orders both 19 the obligees and the obligors should be listed on the 20 court order so that if I as an individual go back and 21 say, Hey, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do to 22 raise my child, she's sitting on her butt doing 23 nothing, I should be able to take her in for contempt 24 of court as well because she is not doing anything to 25 support my child financially, I'm doing it all both for 40 1 her -- both for him and for her. So I think that I 2 would like to see that, and we'll work with the 3 template folks, I believe they meet in spring, we'll 4 meet with those folks this year and make sure that we 5 try to get the staff to push through as well, the court 6 orders. Both parties obligation, financial obligation 7 should be on the court order so we can take it to the 8 judge and say, Hey, I'm doing it, she's not, that is 9 not right, it's not fair. You need to hold her 10 accountable or him accountable if it's the custodial 11 parent as well. That's all I've got. Thank you. 12 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Howe. 13 We also have Jennifer Hanratty. Ms. Hanratty. 14 MS. HANRATTY: I think it's working in here. 15 And I just want to say (inaudible) of that, that I 16 called (inaudible) at child support. My question is, 17 my ex-husband is in Nebraska, and so I have a great 18 case worker who has tried very hard to get money out of 19 him, but because he lives in Nebraska, there's nothing 20 that -- I really can't do anything unless I turn my 21 case over to Nebraska, and if I turn my case over to 22 Nebraska, then I lose all control here and I won't 23 have anybody to go in to talk to to find out what's 24 going on. And so they should move the -- They can't 25 move it (indiscernible) court because he lives in 41 1 Nebraska, even though I haven't seen a penny in over 2 two and a half months and, you know, $500 behind in 3 child support, which may not seem like a lot to some 4 people, but to me it's a lot. And they said they can't 5 suspend his license because in order to suspend his 6 license, I'd have to turn my case over to Nebraska. 7 And so basically he has a brother-in-law who is an 8 attorney and he's told him as long as you stay in 9 Nebraska, there isn't anything I can do to get any 10 child support. And he has chosen not to work for the 11 last couple of months. 12 So I just -- You know, I'm going to take care of 13 my daughter. I'm a pediatric nurse and I'll work two 14 jobs as long as I have to to make sure that she's taken 15 care of, and maybe that's my problem, he knows that. 16 But in fact, he's made comments that I'm not worried 17 about her having the clothes because I know your family 18 will take care of her. 19 I pay over $300 a month for child care, and 20 that's only because my family helps me on two to three 21 days a week. And (indiscernible) that she doesn't go. 22 So his $533, $400 of that is going just on day care, 23 preschool and, you know, I put in food, clothing, or 24 shelter. 25 So I was just wanting to know if there's anything 42 1 I can do with him living in Nebraska to try to get some 2 money out of him as long as he chooses not to work? 3 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Well, we would be 4 happy to help or try to talk with you after the meeting 5 is over tonight. There are some things that can be 6 done in an interstate setting to get the cooperation of 7 another jurisdiction or to try and do some things 8 directly. So we would be happy to talk to you perhaps 9 at the break and see if there's some ways that we can 10 assist you. 11 MS. HANRATTY: All right, thank you. 12 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: You bet, thank you. 13 And since I said -- Well, okay, Sylvia is 14 bringing up a list. Great, we have one other person 15 who has asked to speak, Jennie Bristol. Ms. Bristol? 16 Great, thank you very much. 17 MS. BRISTOL: My name is Jennie Bristol. I also 18 am (indiscernible) has never paid child support 19 (inaudible). However, I have an ex-husband who owes 20 over $76,000 in back child support. I found out from 21 my case worker today that there's basically nothing I 22 can do anywhere and I went to take (inaudible) to get 23 the interest tacked on. I have to pay private pay, 24 which I have never gotten done in checks anyway, but in 25 order to tap any liens on houses or anything like that, 43 1 I have to have the information that if he owns any 2 mortgage, they won't give you that information. And I 3 don't have it because (inaudible). 4 I did, however, receive a check a week ago for 5 back child support, and I have that check right here 6 if you would like to see it. It's for $3.35, and 7 that's for two children of back child support on 8 $46,000 from over twenty years ago. My children at 9 that time were two and a half and four. And he has 10 never paid. And I would like to know what you do with 11 old-time dead beats (inaudible)? 12 Also, too, during that time I was told that they 13 were saying tax returns that were going to be given to 14 him, that they would come directly to me for the 15 support of the children, and I've received none. 16 Also, too, it's required under the law the 17 children -- that the parents that pay child support is 18 supposed to have medical insurance on the children that 19 they're paying for. My ex, however, got away with not 20 paying anything. And that would have been really nice 21 because both those children have disabilities. So 22 maybe -- I printed this check here $2.35 (inaudible), 23 and it's (inaudible). And it couldn't have bought two 24 kids a pair of shoes, a gallon of milk for two of 25 them, nothing. As I say, he didn't pay for their 44 1 medical or any prescriptions, you know, not school 2 supplies, you know, food. 3 Please, if you can just give me a call, you have 4 my number at home, and let me know how do I go about 5 this. This is ridiculous, it's really pathetic. And 6 it would be nice to split this money for the children 7 and say, Here, this is from your natural father. And I 8 can't do that with that minuscule penny amount, I can't 9 do that, not to the children. Thank you. 10 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you. 11 Next we have Sheila Reed. Ms. Reed? 12 Thank you very much. 13 MS. REED: My name is Sheila Reed and I'm from 14 the Tri-Cities, and I just want to say to a lot of 15 these parents, I really feel for them because I've 16 raised three children by myself and my last one just 17 graduated from college. All three of my children 18 graduated. And I can honestly say to all of them, I 19 sympathize with them because I know what I went through 20 when I was dealing with support. I remember when I 21 first started out, my support checks used to be checks 22 anywhere from ten to twenty percent. And I was a 23 working mom, I wasn't on Welfare or anything, but I 24 wasn't going to have them telling me that I could not 25 get support and I wasn't going to be able to get any 45 1 kind of child support. So I went to our state 2 representative at the time, which was Ray Isaacson, and 3 I remember him calling me in April of 1984 and he asked 4 me if he could use my case in the legislative. And so 5 we did, he took it to the legislative assembly in April 6 of 1985, the first of -- June 1st 1984, they stopped 7 tax of support checks. 8 And I guess what I'm trying to say to some of 9 these parents is that it's hard, you have to work hard, 10 but I feel really blessed because Support Enforcement 11 here really worked with me because I had a case that 12 was considered a Urissa (phonetic) case out of 13 California, but I ended up getting my child support 14 from there, from Texas, and here. And I guess the 15 point I'm just trying to say is that you have to work, 16 it's not easy and it's not going to be an easy thing. 17 And also with the dad's, too, as a parent that 18 was receiving support, I always thought it was really 19 wrong when I used to work with women who would talk 20 about buying cars for their boyfriends with that 21 support money. There's one thing my children could 22 tell you to this day, every penny that I got went to 23 them. Sometimes I went without just to make sure that 24 they had something. 25 And I guess that as far as them talking about 46 1 debit cards, I sell Work First as a regional person for 2 this area, and those debit cards don't work. I was one 3 of those that when they first used them or put that 4 into effect, it doesn't work because what a lot of 5 those people do, they sell their debit card to somebody 6 else because they don't have to show ID a lot of times. 7 So you guys need to take a look at that as well, 8 okay,so. 9 But I just want to say that I just feel very 10 blessed and fortunate because the Support Enforcement 11 here really worked with me, and like I said, I received 12 support for my kids. And like I said, my children did 13 extremely well and all went on to college and they're 14 out of school. 15 MODERATOR DAVID STILLMAN: Thank you very much. 16 Well, I believe the time is about 7:30 and so 17 that I don't get into trouble with my fellow panel 18 members, I'm going to ask us to take a fifteen-minute 19 break at this point. We also don't have any additional 20 folks signed up for comment, but that could change in 21 the intervening fifteen minutes. If that does, we'll 22 reconvene; otherwise, let's go ahead and take a break. 23 Thank you very much. 24 (The recording continued during the break but was 25 not transcribed. The proceedings were not reconvened.) 47 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, CINDY L. CARMICHAEL, a certified court 4 reporter of the State of Washington, do hereby certify 5 that I was provided a CD-ROM of the foregoing recorded 6 proceedings; that I was requested by Mitchelin Wolff 7 to transcribe the CD-ROM; that I was not physically 8 present at the proceedings; that the CD-ROM was 9 transcribed stenographically by me and reduced to text 10 under my direction. 11 12 I further certify that the foregoing transcript 13 of the recorded proceedings is a full, true, and 14 accurate transcript of all discernible and audible 15 remarks to the best of my ability. 16 17 Dated and Signed this 25th day of April 2006. 18 19 20 CINDY L. CARMICHAEL, 21 CCR 2016 22 23 24 25 48